Jason Knight 0:00 Hello and welcome to the show and an episode where we ask do we have to specialise to get ahead in his world? Who is it room for generalists in today's workplace? Speaking of workplaces, this episode is sponsored by one night consulting and yes, yes, yes, that's me. But listen up. I started one night consulting because I've seen variations of the same problems plaguing growing startups, scale ups and larger digitally transforming companies again and again. These problems can cause friction between teams, slow product development, lacklustre sales and ultimately lead to constrain growth. So if you're scaling your product organisation, struggling with cost him alignment, or having trouble executing your product strategy to support your business goals, you can go to one night consulting.com To book a call with Well me and see how I can help. That's one night consulting.com You can check the show notes for more details. Anyway, now it's time to hop in a boat with me and journey to a tiny island on the edge of the world. Find one woman who's spearheading the generalist movement through community career support and resources. So let's find out what all the fuss is about. On One Knight in Product. Jason Knight 1:09 So my guest tonight is Milly Tamati. Milly is a mental health advocate, community builder, founder and passionate generalist who lives in a tiny island off the coast of Scotland with 170 residents, a castle and a distillery. So I'm hoping I can persuade her to send me a little bottle of that famous Ross a whiskey. These days, he's looking far beyond 170 people and distilling a passion for community and generalist with a new startup generalist world, a global launch pad for generalists and says we can all be successful wear many hats, which does sound good, but she hasn't seen the size of my head. Hi Milly, how are you tonight? Milly Tamati 1:39 I'm doing great. That's a fantastic intro. Thank you very much for having me. Jason Knight 1:44 No worries. So the first most important question. So you're originally from New Zealand. you've travelled the world, you visited over 65 countries, the edge of picking them up. But you settled in a remarkably small island on the edge of the UK, way up there north of Ben Nevis. So how come you decided to stay there? Milly Tamati 2:03 It's a great question. And I think the answer kind of lies in the first part of what you are. So as you said, I'm originally from New Zealand. I've been travelling for the past 10 years. One of the places that I stopped in for about a year was Indonesia. That's when I met my now husband, who he makes whiskey. So probably organise that little bottle. So yeah, we offered this job about 18 months ago, and we've been living up on Razzie for Yeah, the last year and a half. Jason Knight 2:37 Excellent. So he got like his own distillery and his own brand out there, or is he working for some of the established company out there? Milly Tamati 2:45 He works for an established company, rather a distillery Believe it or not, Jason Knight 2:50 does what it says on the tin I guess. Now I've looked at tourist photos of ourselves. And it looks very windswept very lovely, very green. And you were talking before this about the wind and the rain as well, obviously, but you know, you've got to take your offer you smooth. But I've been to the rural UK before many, many times. The broadband speed is generally pretty rubbish. Now also, you're heavily involved in the tech scene, your community building, you're working with people all around the world, and presumably sometimes even have to go and travel to some of these places, travel to conferences, travel abroad to do meetups and stuff. How easy is it doing all of that stuff from where you are in your current base? Milly Tamati 3:28 Well, to be honest, it's it's a learning curve. Like even I think five or 10 years ago, I wouldn't say it would have been impossible to do this. But I think we've come a really, really long way in the past few years in terms of remote work. So I'm, I'm very lucky that the the the incident situation is not too bad. Although the house that I live is actually the last house that's like on grid so like with electricity and water and everything. So we do not have Wi Fi I have a 40 pound Wi Fi dongle that I got off eBay and I literally balance it in my window. And it is incredible. I can do you know, we I host weekly events. I spend a lot of my life on calls and the Wi Fi it's, it's amazing. It works. Often it's better. You know, I could be on a call with someone in San Francisco and their Wi Fi is chopping out and my one balancing on the window is is doing okay, so I feel very fortunate to live in this day and age where this is a possibility I can live on this tiny island that no one totals in the middle of nowhere. I can have this kind of like balance right where I'm looking at the window and all I see is trees. I don't see people yet. I can still be deeply involved in the tech and startup scene. And I think we're just at this very specific special time of the world where all of this is possible. Jason Knight 4:57 Yeah, you wait till the metaverse comes along and you don't even need Is it a bit of cheese anymore, but I think it's also really interesting for me. And this is something that I've reflected on a lot over the pandemic and the lockdowns and all of the times that we were kind of all holed up at home and you know, could have been literally anywhere, including on an island in the middle of nowhere. It's like, even just a few years ago, maybe not even 10. But like, even just a few years ago, it would have been so problematic to try and coordinate like an entire company, online. It just feels that all of the tools and the ways that we can collaborate and everything have come on so far. And I'm I'm here for that, obviously. I mean, I still do like to bump into people every now and then. But I just think it's amazing. And it'd be really interesting to see where we go, but hopefully not the metaverse because I've seen a bunch of videos of that. And so far, it is remarkably unimpressive. But you know what, maybe it'll take a bit, give me legs, and we'll talk. Now, as I said in the intro, you're the founder, generalists world. So it's pitch time. Problem. Does genuineness world, so for me, or for generalists in general? And I guess importantly, how does it specifically solve it? Milly Tamati 6:02 So, for example, I am a generalist servants or I've had a really non traditional nonlinear career. I know the value that I bring to a company, especially to a startup, I'm cross functional, I can work across different domains. I'm a problem solver. I'm a connector, yet there was nowhere for companies to come and hire me. So that's one side of the problem. And then the other side is, as a generalist, I didn't know any other generalists. In fact, I didn't even know the word. generalist. I didn't have language for it. I was kind of always like, I'm a jack of all trades, and I wear many hats. I didn't have any a thing. cific I've never seen me represented, I guess. Yeah. And so the problem we've sold as being this support and this resource for people who think and work a little bit differently, we proudly don't think we need to specialise. Jason Knight 7:00 So, I mean, that sounds great. But you said that you hadn't got a vocabulary for this yourself. You didn't really know anyone that did that. So how big of a for one of a better word problem is this? Like? How many general asylum out there not just in your community, but like, how many people out there in general, do you think that there are that would maybe fall under this label? Is it like a majority of people and they're just being forced into buckets that they don't need to be in? Or do you think there's a sizable minority that needs to be supported, but that there's still kind of a big world out there for specialists as well? Milly Tamati 7:32 I love that question. Because I think the answer to it is that we just don't know, a lot of what I'm doing at the moment, is figuring this out, because and when I say figuring it out, I feel sometimes like I'm assuming in the dark, because I'm not following anyone that has done this. It really is. It started with me realising that I had this problem that I was like, Oh, when I I feel really awkward when someone asked me what I do. And yeah, like I would I would kind of cringe when someone would say like, what do you do. And so it started with me one person, and then I it really kicked off a started to talk to, you know, maybe around 10 people that kind of looks like me on LinkedIn, and Twitter. And that has snowballed, and the word of mouth and a referral effect of this is wild. It's like, no one has ever given generalist permission and acknowledged that this is like, okay, and that it's valued. And so when we bring one person into the community, they are like, the most excited person ever, because they finally feel like they belong somewhere. And then in turn, they bring everyone they know, who also worked like them. So to answer your question, I have absolutely no idea what percentage of the world is generalist? But my hunch is, it's much higher than we think. Jason Knight 8:58 More research needed, but it sounds exciting. And you've got this kind of almost viral growth loop going already. So who knows where that'll go. Keep an eye on the stats. But you just said of course that you didn't have words where and you maybe you call yourself a jack of all trades. I know there's talk of things like T shaped people out there as well. People that have the deep expertise in some areas, but generally applicable expertise across a lot of areas, I guess, are those people generalists to like are these T shaped people and jack of all trades? Just different types of generalist or is generalist have a specific type of thing like how are you specifically defining or how would you define yourself other than that you've just had a varied experience. Milly Tamati 9:36 It's an evolving definition and the more people it really is, I would define a generalist as someone who intuitively is comfortable and happiest wearing many hats, which I know still sounds kind of broad, but we now have around well over 1000 people gathered in the community and I've spoken to many of them one on one and the common Like traits and combining factor is that when they, when they see our website when they hear some of our content, they just know it's not a like, if you it's one of those things where it's like, if you know, you know, and especially often folks have been trying for their entire lives and their entire careers to fit into these, like specialised boxes to be given a role and a title. And ultimately, it just doesn't make them happy. Jason Knight 10:29 Yeah, no, it makes no sense. I guess, the question to follow up from that, though, and you've kind of touched on it, just then yourself out, it doesn't make them happy. I mean, that's obviously something that we want people to be and I know that you've been an advocate for and you've worked in and around mental health before as of right, it's like a good goal to go for. Right. But what are some of the impacts of that being forced into these roles, these more specialised roles, or maybe, to some extent, constraining people that don't want to be constrained, like, what are some of the kind of effects of that that you've seen from people that you've spoken to in your community? Milly Tamati 11:06 So the way I see it, we all are going to spend a really large part of our lives working, that's inevitable. Yep. And if we're working these jobs and roles that really don't align with how we work best, that is naturally going to have a huge effect on our mental health. We actually have a there's a woman in our community, she's a neuroscientist turn entrepreneurs, she's absolutely phenomenal. And her and I had this conversation the other day, where she would love to do the research that comes with working these jobs that ultimately Don't fulfil you, and how much happier you could be if you are given the freedom to work roles that due. And as an example, my previous role, it's quite funny. It was the director of miscellaneous. That was my contract. And Jason Knight 11:58 I like it, you could have been promoted to the chief miscellaneous officer as well. Milly Tamati 12:02 Exactly. I like that. The director of miscellaneous, and I can honestly say that apart from being a founder, that was the job where I felt most fulfilled, most happy, most valued. And the reason was, because I would turn up every day. I wasn't put into a box, it wasn't like Millie's going to be working on this and nothing else, I would turn up, I would see the big problems at hand. And I would go and dig in to wherever I was needed. I touched every single area of the business except for design and engineering. Because the answer your previous question, we do need specialists like we totally do need specialists. I'm just saying, we also need to make room for generalists, who are, you know, the thread that ties it all together these connectors? Someone's also described it as like the glue. For me, I think it's an essential part of business. Jason Knight 12:53 Yeah. And there's different opinions about glue roles, to some extent, I mean, product management, which is obviously my world, that's something that is often described as glue. And some people actually push back against that, because they're like, well, actually, there's a craft to product management, for example. But at the same time, obviously, product managers in general are very cross functional, they work across so many different parts of the business. So there is something to that. And I'm actually kind of curious now, you sort of touched on the fact that there are or that we do need a percentage of, say, generalists, and a percentage of specialists, for example, engineers or data scientists or stuff like that. And maybe it's a really difficult question to answer. But what is that percentage? Is there a kind of a general rule of thumb or like something that you've seen from the work that you've done? Or does it vary so wildly across different types of industry that it'd be impossible to say, like, such and such a company needs more generalists to be successful? Milly Tamati 13:46 Again, we're swimming in the dark, we don't know because it really hasn't been done. I think what I'm seeing and keep in mind, we're very early on, we're about four months in. But what I'm seeing from speaking to lots of people speaking to lots of companies, is that the generalist sweet spot is in companies of under 50 people. It's not to say it's not impossible in larger organisations, but me being just one person, I need to like laser focus on where we can have the most impact. And for me, that's really obvious at its early stage, right up to around that 50 People mark. above that. That's going to be huge Emily's problems to solve. So it's hard to say, but I think especially in early stage, a generalist is such a superpower. Jason Knight 14:38 Yeah, and again, I'm always gonna be out for generalists and people that can do a bunch of things and like you say, especially in those smaller firms, where, as far as I'm concerned, getting to specialists or like to big company type people in too soon can actually have a real dragging effect on the company because you start to do things. What you start to try and optimise for things that you shouldn't be optimising for yet. But you've touched it, you've had a bunch of jobs, including the director of miscellaneous. But you've also worked in a bunch of places. You've been freelancing, you've done contracting, you've been doing a variety of different roles in your time. So what was it that made you decide at this specific moment in time, that this was a problem that you needed to solve that you need to start generous world? And you needed to be the advocate for generalists apart from just being one yourself? Like, why now? Milly Tamati 15:25 It almost wasn't a decision. It just happened. It was It all started from the sport. I think I mentioned that. Why don't I know anyone else at work like me, and the conversations, the momentum, the excitement, people, like, are just, you're probably maybe seen it online, that people are just so ridiculously excited about this concept that, you know, I'm a big believer in momentum, it's really, really hard to get momentum back. Yep. And when. So when I started talking to folks, and I could see, there's like a moment where people's eyes light up. And if you have a product, or if you have an idea, and someone's eyes light up, when you speak about it, you're onto something. And it took me around, only around maybe a month of of having these initial conversations with people that I realised I have to go all in on this. And they I left my job as the director of miscellaneous, and I went all in on general as well. Jason Knight 16:30 So you're saying that currently you have no competitors. And now people are going to start snapping at your heels or their kind of companies operating kind of in this space, but the you're just got a different lens on it. Milly Tamati 16:40 There are other definitions, I guess, kind of synonyms of a generalist. So there's like a multi potential light. There's a polymath, and there are communities around this that do exist. As far as I can see, were one of the first if not the first, and definitely the biggest and strongest to really focus on the Korea generalist. So our goal is to help generalists at every stage of their career from the moment they realised that oh, maybe maybe specialising isn't for me, right through the inevitable many switches of the career, of course, as a generalist, and then right through to the end where maybe they want to get more involved in mentoring and giving back. So I kind of the generalist world, being there at the lifecycle of a generalist. And as far as I can find, and I'm four months in, this does not exist. Jason Knight 17:31 But I'm assuming that some people in your community have already starting to get put forward for roles, or they're getting roles for the job board that you put up and starting to move forward in their career and embrace their generalist lifestyle. And aside from things like director of miscellaneous, what types of roles are these people actually getting when they are at least getting considered for when they go into these companies? Milly Tamati 17:53 Yeah, it's interesting, because a lot of the roles or roles that again, maybe didn't exist five years ago, so Chief of Staff has been a huge explosion recently. There's is another one, there's a lot of titles like wildcard. And to be honest, my goal is to be able to help companies employ people for truly generalist roles. Right now, were at this kind of tipping point where people can see the need, like, we basically have two sides of the marketplace, we have an incredible talent pools, like I mean, phenomenal talent tools. And now we have companies who are coming to us being like, I need help with this, this and this, and something we've recently, we've recently experimented with, is when a company comes to submit that they want help, I intentionally don't ask for what role they're hiring for. Instead, I asked for what problems do you want sold? And then I simply go back to the community, and I'm like, Who knows how to solve this? Who's keen to solve this? Let me know how you solve it. And then I just send that back to the founder. And it's very, like, almost like a more human way of hiring less transactional less about the CV. It's like, okay, you're an early stage company, you've got tonnes of problems. We have people with solutions, let's like, and I just see myself as like the connector and the facilitator. Jason Knight 19:13 Yeah, it's interesting. There's a very jobs to be done type mentality around that as well, kind of moving away from very specific solutions, per se. And just saying, like you say, what problem needs to be solved. But that's something that not all companies are going to be comfortable with. Start with, like, there's a long history of quite bad hiring bad job specs, bad interview processes. Are these people that you're putting forward, going through a very different process, or are they kind of getting put through basically the same process, but that the job is a bit more optimised around them? Like are they still going through the same drudgery of all the different rounds of interviews and having to submit CVS that call out certain things or you basically creating like a new type of hiring? Milly Tamati 19:58 Well, that's the million dollar question. That is what I've been spending a lot of my time thinking about. I've been coming at this from don't have an HR background, I don't have a background and talent. So it's been very much a baptism of fire, looking at the way that we hire, and being really disheartened by the entire process of it, how much it honestly sucks for the job seekers, but also how much it sucks for founders and hiring managers the resource that goes into sorting through hundreds of applications. So I don't have the answer for you yet. But I will say I'm very, very interested in how we can make that better. And that's where I'm kind of leaning into this community led everything really but community led recruitment, where I have this community, who I personally know, I've vetted them, I've spoken to each one I vouch for them, and then moving towards a more human way of hiring we I then speak to the founders, or the hiring managers, and it's like, kind of just like matching rather than this like transaction. Jason Knight 21:05 Yeah, well, they're speaking their transactions also seems like a potential avenue for this could be, for example, short term gigs. Like for example, you're a generalist, you have a certain set of skills like Liam Neeson, I guess, and you go in and you go and fill a need, because they have one, but then maybe you go on, go and do that somewhere else, like, is that part of your thinking as well? Or are you looking at, again, trying to change the hiring paradigm and having people that are there for the duration, or certainly until the company gets to a certain size? Milly Tamati 21:34 I'm open, I'm open to seeing what both sides of the market want. From the general side, there is a huge amount of interest in this like fractional gig, part time kind of work, I think the thing was generalist is were inherently very, very curious. And we need to be challenged. So it's quite an attractive prospect for a generalist to be able to work across multiple different projects and solve multiple different problems. Jason Knight 22:01 Yeah, makes a lot of sense. And that's what I'm trying to do at the moment as well. So definitely understand the attraction to that. But from a personal level, I mean, you've described yourself as a generalist, and obviously, you've got your own definition of that. And as the hiring stuff that we just talked about, and the potential problems that you might have, getting a job or finding a job to even want. But aside from the specifics of hiring, what are some of the really great things in your mind about being a genuine, it's like, why is it it helps you not just at work, but just as a person? Milly Tamati 22:30 Yeah, I think we are talking about this in a very Korea perspective. But ultimately, being a generalist is who I am. It's the reason that I've spent 10 years travelling, for example, it's the reason it's, you know, not that I can't sit still, but that I'm so curious, I love to learn, I love to explore. And that's given me the most rich 10 years that I've been travelling of my entire life. I really think I owe that to being a generalist. Jason Knight 22:58 Yeah, and I guess on the flip side, then, are there any downsides? Like the side again, from the hiring, let's leave that to one side? Like, are there any downsides to that? Are there any things that you think well, wouldn't it just be simpler if I just did this one thing? Like, how does that sit? Yeah, I Milly Tamati 23:15 think the biggest downside for me was never failing, like, I was, up until now is like, never feeling like I was doing something wrong, almost because society has told me that I should specialise. And it's like, this is the career ladder and you go up, there's no room for like, lateral. And so I spent a really big part of my life and my career, not feeling like I kind of fit in anywhere. And it's a feeling of pressure to niche down and choose, you know, get serious, go deep on something. And naturally, I felt Yeah, like, I really didn't belong and that I was doing something wrong or that I was a bit a bit weird, to be honest. A bit of like an outlier for not wanting to be like everyone else. So I think that was the big thing. I think a generalist can be really damn lonely. Yeah. Unless, yeah, unless you have people around you that are also validating like this is this is totally okay. But for my entire life, I haven't had that. Jason Knight 24:18 No, absolutely. And I guess the community that you've put up and the signups you've had a starting to build some of that support network around the world. I mean, you've built out now I think you said 1000 People representation from like, 60 countries. So it's obviously on the app, but what are some of the specific initiatives that the community is doing so far? And again, it's pretty early, but like some of the stuff that is it just meetups or mentoring, or they're like other initiatives that you're looking to kind of put out there to help support people in situations like you've just described? Milly Tamati 24:48 Yeah, so general fold is basically made up of these three pillars. The first is community, and that's where we have things like events workshops are about to kick off a mastermind and is obviously the the community which lives on slack at the moment. So where people can come and find support, ask questions. And, you know, maybe I'm biassed, but in my experience, it is one of the most valuable communities I've ever been a part of. And I think it's, and I really think it's because people are so excited to be there, they're so excited to give back to other people like them that there's so much like giving on generalist world, which blows my mind often. The second kind of pillar is this opportunity pillar. And so that's where, you know, we're basically trying to get people awesome jobs, essentially, in a nutshell. And then the third is education and resource. So it is educating externally. So the world coming on podcasts like this, spreading the message, almost like an awareness campaign, of what a generalist is, who we are, what value we bring, but then also internally, you know, having these resources for generalists. We're looking at developing this kind of playbook at the moment. Where it's like here is all of the problems that we collectively face. Here's how many of us have sold them and just having these like really solid, valuable resources, which honestly, I wish I had when I was 20. Jason Knight 26:20 No, absolutely. I think having communities and having resources. I mean, it's, it's an obvious game changer when there's a gap there. But you said recently on Twitter, I think you got it pinned on Twitter that, in your opinion, nine out of 10 communities are going to fail. And obviously, I'm assuming yours is going to be the one of the one out of 10s. But in the interest of getting that number down and not making other people either generalist or otherwise kind of sad, like why are those communities going to fail? In your opinion? Milly Tamati 26:51 The intention definitely wasn't to make people sad. The intention of that post was to make people think, I think community has become a real buzzword. Companies are jumping on board brands are jumping on board. And you know, community is not a discord. Community is not a Slack channel. Yeah, it really isn't. But there's always a danger with how easy it has been to whip up a community. I could. I could pick one off in five minutes today. And this is where I see the danger being is I'm not sure how many communities or flat groups you're a part of. But my gosh, most of them are ghost towns. They really are. So the danger I see with community building is it so easy from the outside looking in, so easy to see the success of like communities that are growing and people that are like getting these real world valuable outcomes. And it's like, I worry that community is going to become kind of like a fad, you know, where everyone jumps on the bandwagon. And then the overall quality of community goes way, way down. And so the thinking behind the nine out of 10 communities will fail is because they haven't really thought if I stopped this, do I want to be working on this for the next three to five to seven years. It's like, if you start a community, depending on of course, what your intentions are. But if you started a community with the intention of monetizing and making it a part of your business strategy, then you need to treat it like a business, you need to be like you have the same level of like dedication and thought that you would just starting a business. And so that was the intention not to not to depress anyone and be like, you're all gonna fail. But to be like before you start, why are you starting? What is this community? Do you have the bandwidth and the passion and the grit to see this through? Because otherwise, we're just gonna have this graveyard of communities? Jason Knight 28:59 Just to understand that the metaverse again. But you touched on it as I mean, yeah, I'm, I'm on a bunch of slack communities. And I was gonna say like, you know, over the years, I've joined slack communities, I've joined Facebook groups, I've joined discord, I've joined all of these different things, trying to find people, you know, to resonate with them. Some of them have been good, some of them in bad quite a lot of them ghost towns, as you say. But isn't it a bit overwhelming for all of us to be on all these different communities? Like Can't we all just go onto one of these centralised social media sites like Twitter and just tweets everyone there? Like why do we need these communities in your opinion? Milly Tamati 29:34 So my opinion is that we're going to be moving from mass social media like Twitter, even like LinkedIn. And it's almost going to be like this. unbundling where we, of course, there's so many opportunities to meet lots of people, but it comes back to that age old saying, if you're speaking to everyone, you're speaking to no one and I think, to touch back on the mental health kind of topic that we were speaking about earlier. There's a serious like, meaning crisis. At the moment, you know, so many people are lacking purpose and meaning and belonging. And I think as the world gets busier, as it changes faster and faster, to have this core group of people who you know, and trust, are going to have your back, and I'm going to be able to help to support you, I think it's going to be an invaluable resource. So I think that communities, when done well, are going to be incredibly important for the future. Jason Knight 30:34 Oh, here, but now I want you to imagine a generalist. Maybe they haven't called themselves a generalist yet, maybe they're still slaving away in some rubbish job, that's not satisfying them. They want to break out and be their full selves and find something they're happy with and embrace their generalism. Now, aside from joining their community, which I'm assuming they should absolutely do, what's like that one first step that you'd advise them to do to start to move down that path? Milly Tamati 30:59 Whether it's joining the community, or whether it's just finding more people like you, I think there is huge value in validating that you're not alone. I can't emphasise that enough. I think that was one of my biggest struggles. Before I met all of my people, was just really feeling like I didn't fit in, and there's something wrong with me. So I would urge anyone who is curious, or if some of this is resonating, and you think okay, perhaps this could be me, is to seek even one other person out because it has been, as I said, a snowball effect. When I sought out that one 510 First members, it was like a light bulb for all of us. Jason Knight 31:42 Oh, hey, let's hope that some of my listeners will feel inspired to do something similar given that they will. Hopefully a lot of them at least Oh generous heart anyway, all of these product managers of all our different skills. So try and find your people. But if people do want to find this person, as in you after this and want to chat about communities, or find out more about generalist world, or maybe even trying to get a sniff to a whiskey, where can I find you? Milly Tamati 32:07 Yes, sir. You'll find me I'm very vocal on LinkedIn and Twitter that has been 100% of my marketing strategy. At the moment it is shouting as loud as I can about generalists. So it's just my name, Millie Tamati, on both LinkedIn and Twitter, you can also find us at generalist dot worlds where you can find where you can sign up for the community. Although we do have a bit of a waitlist at the moment. I think there's about 400 folks on it. It's growing by the day. So I'm really trying to get through that as fast as I can. But yeah, to your point earlier, it's about making sure the community can scale while still keeping the essence of what we have now. So just in case people are disappointed by that waitlist, it's really intentionally not to say you can't come in it, just opening the door slowly to make sure that we still have a really high quality community inside. Jason Knight 33:01 Oh, absolutely. Well, they better get on quick so they don't have to wait even longer. But I made sure to link all of that into the show notes. And hopefully you'll get a few exciting looking community members have been your direction has been a fantastic chat. So obviously really glad we could find the time to talk about some fascinating and inspirational topics. Obviously we'll stay in touch. But yeah, that's for now. Thanks for taking the time. Thank you so much. As always, thanks for listening. I hope you found the episode inspiring and insightful. If you did again, I can only encourage you to hop over to white knight in product.com. Check out some of my other fantastic guests sign up to the misters client on your favourite podcast app and make sure you share your friends so you and they can never miss another episode again. I'll be back soon with another inspiring guest but as for now, thanks and good night.